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The Vintage Japanese Motorcycle Owners Group: Discussion Forums

Vintage Japanese Motorcycle Owners Group :: View topic - T500 project and questions (of course)


T500 project and questions (of course)
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dorT500
Full Throttle
Full Throttle


Joined: Jul 10, 2008
Posts: 2090
Location: Galveston County, Texas

PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bikegeezer wrote:
dorT500 wrote:
About your question concerning installing new HV wires in these coils...I have never done it but it seems I had seen a pic an article about doing it...don't even remember it it was a T500 coil. Stu, know anything about it?
Yeah, I did a tutorial on it on the old Sundial forum. Good luck finding that! But here's one of the pics from it - the finished product. In fact, that coil is still hanging around here someplace. Free to a good home, if I can find it.]
Smile How come I had a feeling that was you who had done it? Wink If it were not so late I would give finding the thread a shot. I will try tomorrow night to find it. I would like to put in first request on behalf of member 'flatlander' for the coil just if you happen to come across it sometime in the near future. Good Night. I'm Arrow
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GONE.......WITH A PUFF OF SMOKE AND A BLUR OF SPOKE........
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flatlander
Weekend Warrior
Weekend Warrior


Joined: Oct 13, 2010
Posts: 6
Location: Rossville, KS

PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again for your kindness and info, its greatly appreciated.

Dor, I'll PM you my address and send the postage out when I received the goodies. The outer fin on the head is broken off which is more of a cosmetic issue, but I can only look at it for so long before I need to swap it out. I think that occurred 1 1/2 minutes after I got the bike. My rear turn signals are red, which at first though I should be amber, but then I saw some other 500's with red turn signals so I guess they are correct. I really just need the one at this time.

I'm looking at the other post on the coil too. Not sure I would want to tackle it without seeing it done first. Just on that good with electrical stuff.

Dave
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rdaystrom
Weekend Warrior
Weekend Warrior


Joined: Aug 08, 2010
Posts: 98
Location: arkansas

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a little clarification on Suzuki CCI. The letters CCI stand for cylinder crankcase injection. This was different from other manufacturers that simply squirted oil into the intake along with the fuel/air mixture like Yamaha for instance. Suzuki's CCI system (as already mentioned) sends oil directly to the crankcase main bearings. After the oil travels through the crankshaft ball bearing it is slung by centrifugal force into a cup shaped oil slinger that covers the entire inner side of the ball bearing. This slinger has a hole on it's outer perimeter that is indexed on the lower crank pin. Oil exits the slinger and travels into a horizontal hole or tunnel that is drilled in the crank pin and then exits through a vertical hole in the crank pin that puts the oil directly on the lower rod bearing. From there the oil is slung out into the crankcase where it eventually winds up mixing with fuel/air and is consumed by the engine. The other oil line injects a small amount of oil into the intake area for piston lubrication. CCI's advantage over conventional injection systems was twofold. It sent oil directly to the main bearings and rod bearings and it used far less oil than other oil injection systems. Suzuki averaged around 50:1 ratio whereas Yamaha averaged around 20:1. Because of the lean oil ratio Suzuki CCI injected bikes ran with virtually dry exhaust pipes. Running a CCI injected engine on pre-mix fuel would eventually lead to main bearing failure because the oil slinger would prevent most of the premix oil from ever getting into the ball bearing mains. One side effect of Suzuki CCI injection was that oil would tend to build up in the crankcase. This oil would cause excessive smoke when the rider eventually ran the engine a little harder and the crankshaft picked it up and slung it into the engine. To combat this oil injection build-up Suzuki created SRIS in the early 70s. SRIS stands for Suzuki Recycle Injection System. This system picked up excessive oil in the bottom of the crankcase and injected it via rubber hoses,vacuum, and check valves back into the cylinder to be burned off. SRIS was marginally effective and was eventually dropped. Another interesting aspect of Suzuki crankshaft design was that one of the crankshaft main bearings (on the power output side) was lubricated not by CCI oil but by transmission oil. This required that the crankshaft oil seal be placed proximal or inside the main bearing. On the 1972 GT750 this oil seal was supported only by a half-moon shaped metal clip that fit in a groove in the crankcase. This design left the seal unsupported at the top half. Occasionally the right cylinder would backfire and the pressure from the backfire would bend the main bearing seal over and allow transmission oil to be sucked into the engine at an alarming rate. Excessive smoke from the right side and loss of transmission oil were the symptoms of the bent oil seal diagnosis. Unfortunately the only fix was to replace the crankshaft which came with a modified seal that could not blow out or be bent over. This problem was limited only to the 1972 GT750.
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Bikegeezer
Gear Head
Gear Head


Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 1410
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've described the CCI setup for the triples. The 500 twins don't have the SRIS system or the oil guide plates for the crank bearings. And that oil seal problem wasn't limited to the '72 Water Buffalo. It plagued all years, right up to the end of production. Suzuki replaced those "magic fingers" with a lip integral to the seal. One good backfire still displaced the seal at the top. We didn't replace those crankshafts, we rebuilt them. But after I discovered the oil was leaking past the OD of the seal, I started assembling the engines by gluing the OD of the seal to the crankcase halves with handgrip cement. That cured the problem. BTW, Suzuki specified "non-diluent" two stroke oil for their bikes back then - oil that wasn't modified for easier mixing with gasoline - because, as you say, the oil was pumped directly to the bearings and cylinder walls rather than being mixed at some point with the intake charge. Today's CCI oil contains solvents and detergents like all the other brands.

Stu
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Rizingson
Gear Head
Gear Head


Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 1098
Location: Parker, CO

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good info here Stu and rdaystrom, I had forgot about SRIS. I had removed the muffler system on my GT550 to put on a new centerstand and notice the oil tubes coming out the front of the motor down low. Looks like they route to the back of the engine and return near the inlet side. Is this all there is to the SRIS system, just vacuum sucking out the excess crankcase oil and returning it for combustion and lubrication? I only thought there was the 6 lines from the pump until seeing these.


GT550 motor front.JPG
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rdaystrom
Weekend Warrior
Weekend Warrior


Joined: Aug 08, 2010
Posts: 98
Location: arkansas

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bikegeezer, I'll have to disagree with you on the T500 not having the oil slinger. It's there on the part diagrams back as far as 1968. CCI wouldn't be worth a flip in my opinion without the oil slingers. The slinger is how the bottom end rod bearing got it's oil.
Check it out at this link. Part number 20.
http://www.bikebandit.com/1968-suzuki-motorcycle-t5001/o/m6716#sch279298
As far as rebuilding crankshafts. Yes, I rebuilt GT750 crankshafts but not under warranty. If I'm not mistaken Suzuki warranty would only pay for a crankshaft assembly because most shops and/or their mechanics were not set up or qualified to rebuild cranks.
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Bikegeezer
Gear Head
Gear Head


Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 1410
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rdaystrom wrote:
Bikegeezer, I'll have to disagree with you on the T500 not having the oil slinger.
You're correct. Sorry 'bout that.
Quote:
As far as rebuilding crankshafts. Yes, I rebuilt GT750 crankshafts but not under warranty. If I'm not mistaken Suzuki warranty would only pay for a crankshaft assembly because most shops and/or their mechanics were not set up or qualified to rebuild cranks.
Under warranty, yes.
Most of the failures I saw happened after the warranty period.

Stu
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Bikegeezer
Gear Head
Gear Head


Joined: Dec 26, 2007
Posts: 1410
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rizingson wrote:
Is this all there is to the SRIS system, just vacuum sucking out the excess crankcase oil and returning it for combustion and lubrication?
Positive pressure under the piston forced accumulated oil out through the check valve and into the scavenge port of another cylinder. It worked pretty well, as long as the check valves were good and the screens weren't clogged. The system was designed to reduce visible emissions from oil accumulated during periods of extended idle or slow riding. The original design (press in valves) had the left and right cylinders pumping into the center's scavenge ports, and the result was smoking from the smaller pipes. They changed it so the left intake received half of the scavenged oil that previously went to the center cylinder, and the valves were changed to screw in type for easier servicing. Speaking of servicing, test the valves only with a plastic syringe and tubing attached to the valve's output pipe. Never use compressed air.


Stu
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