1975 S3A 400 Clutch

Gizmo · Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:58 am Post subject:

Did you get your 70 H1 ?? Gizmo

650hardtail · Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:52 am Post subject:

nah...deal never worked out...seller kept it...
you ever get the clutch sorted ?

gsbeliever · Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:35 am Post subject: tranny oil for triples

My family owned a Kaw/Yam dealership for 25 years and it was common knowledge that the triple clutches would often slip unless you ran ATF instead of oil. In fact, we sold many quarts of Trick Shift, a racing ATF we had heard about, to people that were otherwise convinced they needed to purchase new clutch plates. We had the gratitude of many customers once they realized how much $$ we were saving them.

Anybody else have experience w/ this?
scott

Gizmo · Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:57 pm Post subject:

Haven't got to it yet. I have been busy working on my GS550ES restoration. Bought a sandblaster unit from Harbor Freight and just got it put together today. I have lots of parts to sand blast as well as the frame.

I bought 2 quarts of 75 Wt Belray Gear Saver oil to put in it when I get the time. I am going to pull the clutch apart, be sure that it is indexed when I reinstall the steel plates and friction plates. Not sure what to soak them in to clear out the 90 wt Hypoid oil. Perhaps Kerosene would do the trick, or brake cleaner, or contact cleaner, OR ?????

Gizmo

Gizmo · Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:01 am Post subject:

Hey Scott, on the ATF, what type of ATF would you recommend that is available today? Never heard of ATF in the transmission/clutch. Do you remember if the reliability of the clutches over the long term was good???? It sounds tempting, just do not want to screw up a new clutch setup. Smile

Gizmo

Rizingson · Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:57 am Post subject:

I've been following this thread for a bit, but wasn't going to chime in until the comments about ATF were brought up.
Building auto trannys for race applications is a procedure I'm well versed in and some additional prep is necessary. There are a couple of points I'd like to bring up first.
1. Always soak the friction plates in the type of fluid being used for a few hours. Long enough for the friction material to completely absorb it.
2. Rough up the steel plates with a 180-220 wet dry material in a non-circular pattern prior to clutch assembly.
These steps will allow the first critical applications of the clutch to engage with minimum slippage and the ability to disperse heat quickly.
Failure to do this will cause glazing of the steels and friction plates. Steels can be removed and de-glazed but the frictions are ruined.
Do not re-soak your frictions in anything that may unbond the friction material. Such as an alchol or napthalene based product. Get new frictions.
The type of ATF with no friction modifiers that has the highest coefficient of static friction is "type F" used in Ford products until about 1977. Until then Ford used metallic bands and friction plates.
Ford was then producing trannys with relatively small frictional surfaces. GM used Dextron II which has friction modifiers making it more slippery, but requires larger and more plates per clutch pack to prevent slippage
and heat buildup. This was done for a smoother shift and elimination of clutch shudder(grabbing).
An old trick back in the day was to use Type F in a GM transmission to make it shift harder. But the reverse would be a disaster.
B&M still makes trick shift fluid which has modifiers for heat resistance and anti-foaming qualities (which would have no benefit in a bike) but still maintains a high coeffienct of friction.
I've never attempted to put ATF in a bike gearbox so I can't say for a fact that it has suffienct wt. or other lubricating requirements, although it could be the answer.
Some other major differences in bikes and cars are, cars use a pump to produce hydralic pressure which forces the plates to engage and springs to return or dis-engage. Those pressures can easily be modified upward and the transfer of fluid sped up by enlarging orfices etc. A bike relies on the springs to engage the clutch and manually pulling in the lever to disengage, same as a stick shift car.

MR.CHocko · Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:12 am Post subject:

The use of the ATF type fluid for the gear boxes does intrigue me and I am going to have follow this thread more closely. Something I will add from my years of being on both sides of the parts counter. Japanese motorcycles versus their many British and American counterparts were made to be within very tight tolerances, this is evident quite frequently in the machining of their parts. Case in point is if you ever get the chance to take a look at some BSA 440 Victor parts and compare them to Honda parts it will become fairly apparent if you know what to look for. In the mid 80's American and British motorcycles manufacturers began to copy the Japanese with manufacturing their engines with this tolerances. Because of this modern ATF blends will not work. However on the plus side the modern oil blends will work wonderfully in the Yamaha TX750, which was a bike that was too far ahead of its time.

gsbeliever · Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:01 pm Post subject: Trick Shift

I can only speak to my own experience of having no problems using the Trick Shift as tranny fluid, though I usually sold my bikes after I'd racked up 10k or 12k miles. None of the customers ever complained afterwards. I ran it in both my 1971 H1s and my 1974 H1. We recommended it for virtually any Kaw triple that suffered from clutch slippage. Initially we were sending people to the auto accessory store down the street to buy it, then we started stocking it ourselves. I did a quick google search and Trick Shift is still available, tho I would have no idea what the current formulation is and/or if it's still the so called "hot setup". Worked like wonders 30 years ago!
scott

gsbeliever · Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:53 pm Post subject: Trick Shift

I can only speak to my own experience of having no problems using the Trick Shift as tranny fluid, though I usually sold my bikes after I'd racked up 10k or 12k miles. None of the customers ever complained afterwards. I ran it in both my 1971 H1s and my 1974 H1. We recommended it for virtually any Kaw triple that suffered from clutch slippage. Initially we were sending people to the auto accessory store down the street to buy it, then we started stocking it ourselves. I did a quick google search and Trick Shift is still available, tho I would have no idea what the current formulation is and/or if it's still the so called "hot setup". Worked like wonders 30 years ago!
scott

650hardtail · Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:11 pm Post subject:

on the triples board it seems to be the consensis that the belray gear saver is the primary choice...
not wanting to start an oil fued.. works fine in my lil baby s2 triple

Gizmo · Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:52 am Post subject:

Well I have decided to go with the BelRay 75 wt gear saver. I plan to have this bike for the rest of my life and then back to my son who first owned it. Thanks much for that ATF info. I believe I remember indexing the clutch plate holder, but I am not sure I torques the clutch bolts to 5 ft lb. Again these parts are all new. The clutch shudders under max power and as the front wheel lifts it slips???

Thanks much to all of you who have chimed in with your excellent posts. Smile

Gizmo