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Joined: Dec 06, 2010 Posts: 40 Location: Richland/Central Mississippi
Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:23 pm Post subject: T500 Engine Rebuild?
Ok. My 74 T500 has over 15K on the odometer. There is a lot of dirt+oil gunked up under the engine+frame. I'm thinking ill need to redo the gaskets. How hard of a job is this and how long should it take? I have sockets and normal handy man tools. Do I need anything specific? What do I need to do to "tune" the engine? Would I be better off paying $70+hr + parts and letting a mechanic do it?
Also after the rebuild I want to reset the odometer for the rebuild. Is there a way?
Joined: Nov 02, 2008 Posts: 1085 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:25 pm Post subject:
Oil and gunk can accumulate over a long time. Gasket leaks with one of these engines is most unlikely unless the side-covers have been removed and then not carefully put back. The oily gunk can build up from a combination of road grime, leaks that can develop from where the headers slip into the mufflers,leaking washer on sump bung(s),dripping from an over-zealously lubed chain and coming forward from behind the counter-shaft cover and so on. A good clean up may be all that is needed. Personally I wouldn't be 'opening' up the lower end until I was sure that was necessary, then if I was at all unsure of what I was doing,I'd carry the engine to some-one who does know, once I had cleaned it up, and pay to have the work properly done.
Trouble is that just having an engine rebuilt doesn't guarantee the thing will run well. It still has to get gas from a clean tank with properly set-up carbs, be able to take in the right amounts of clean air and blow it all out of an exhaust that is not gunged up.
Thats why most of us prefer, if at all possible, to get a project bike running first, so we know the extent of what is ahead of us, and know we have a service-able ignition, fuel and exhaust system to bolt back onto the rebuilt motor-should it be necessary to take it to an expert to freshen/fix it. Often something that has been neglected , is filthy and runs like a bag of --------- can be made to run really sweetly again by simply cleaning it all up then attending to all the maintenance and tuning things that have been 'let go'.
Joined: Dec 26, 2007 Posts: 1281 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:50 am Post subject:
Good advice from Russell. Clean it up, tune it, see how it runs and where it's leaking from. But based on your post, I don't think you're currently equipped to even tune it, let alone rebuild the engine.
Caution - attitude ahead. Most problems these old bikes suffer are due to folks thinking they're no more complicated than a pencil sharpener and digging right in with no shop manual or knowledge of what they're doing. And some guys on forums like this will encourage you with no idea what you're capable of. Specifics? You need more than a few sockets (hopefully, they're metric) and handyman tools. You need service literature, metric wrenches and sockets, a new #3 Philips screwdriver with a hex shank to remove case screws without hopelessly buggering the screw heads, an impact driver, a torque wrench, various pullers and/or the knowledge how to remove things without them, knowledge of how a 2-stroke engine works, experience setting points, timing, carbs, oil pumps...get the picture? As for resetting the odometer, it's hard to find an instrument shop that'll work on these plastic cased instruments. If you try it yourself, you'll mess up the entire speedo - guaranteed. On top of that, turning back an odometer is illegal as hell.
Okay, attitude off. I'd encourage you to look up Dan's on-line motorcycle repair course, and familiarize yourself with the tools required and general m/c repair practices. http://www.dansmc.com/mc_repaircourse.htm Get a shop manual for the bike and study it well before tearing into that engine, or anything else, for that matter. If you don't understand what you've read, don't attempt the repair. Getting it apart is a lot easier than putting it back together - correctly. Good luck, and have fun.
I agree with Bikegeezer 100%. Your short post leads me to believe that you do not have the knowledge or skills to diagnose the engine much less rebuild it. I'm not against someone learning that way. I learned a lot by tearing down my own stuff but I had container loads of determination and enthusiasm. If you have that kind of energy and desire to see a project like this through then go for it. But be warned you could easily leave something out or installed wrong that could lead to disaster for the T500 engine.
Joined: Dec 26, 2007 Posts: 1281 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:28 am Post subject:
rdaystrom wrote:
...I had container loads of determination and enthusiasm. If you have that kind of energy and desire to see a project like this through then go for it .
No offense, but that's what I meant by encouragement without knowing abilities. I have no doubt he's determined and enthusiastic. He wouldn't be here if he wasn't. But if that's all he's got, he'll need one other thing - luck. They say practice makes perfect. But if we're new to this stuff and practice with wrong tools and lack of knowledge on rare old parts we can't afford to mess up, a viable project could turn into a bucket of scrap. An example - blowing through the oil lines with compressed air. Seems like a reasonable way to clean 'em, right? Then the check valves will be screwed, and finding a good set of oil lines won't be easy or cheap. Knowledge, or knowing where to find it, may be our most important tool. That's the point I'm trying to make. I think a person needs to get a good grasp on the basics from places like that site I mentioned before he could begin to understand the instructions he'll get from forums like this.
Joined: Jul 10, 2008 Posts: 1639 Location: Galveston County, Tx.
Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:59 pm Post subject:
I had previously given him many links including Dans Motorcycle repair in his first post. He appreciated it and said he was finding out a lot things he had been looking for. Let's hope he keeps it up. I also included the VJMOG link to all posts related to the T500 by entering keyword T500 into the search option of the VJMOG. I posted some edited pics showing some very brief 'How To's after he said he was finding a lot of stuff on Dans Motorcycle repair. The edited pics I posted could be used now or later..either way...they are there for when they come in handy for that specific bike. If he does not read every single post, cruise the internet for even more info and still works on the bike than that is on him. He only paid $50.00 for the "abandoned' bike. I think he is just looking for some inexpensive stuff to do while he waits for funds (Me suspects an income tax return) for a bonded title, service manual, tools and parts he may need.( This is one reason why I suggested to him to clean every single electrical contact on that bike as a low cost pre-project while he waits for funds and that it would also give him a head-start for when and if he gets a bonded title. I told him it is either that type of work or just cover the bike with a blanket until he gets funds to do the project right. He has access to the internet and if he does his homework, takes his time, gets advice/answers from time to time from this forum and others, I can't see that there would be a problem working on this very simple two stoke engine. Many warnings of the oil pump/oil line procedures are in these forums. Good grief...no valves, no cams, no chains.
I don't think he actually wants to take the entire engine apart anyway. "Rebuild" may be just another term he inadvertently used while asking about seals/gaskets and cleaning. He probably found that he could get a full gasket set for about $30.00 and at least wants to replace just shaft seals, clutch cover gasket and the like. I don't think he meant cylinder base and cylinder head gaskets just yet.
That motorcycle is just sitting there and he wants to do something to it at minimal cost to 'pass the time' and I don't think anybody here is going to talk him out of jumping ahead to something he may or may not be able to handle at this time but he should be warned again even if he has read up on it already about all the crankshaft seals and 'O' rings most likely being bad. He may need to be reminded that the crankshaft would have to be split to replace the center crankseals and the center bearing 'O' rings. Also, the outboard crank bearing seals and 'O' rings should be replaced. Depending on which crankbuilder is used, could run up to a few hundred dollars for shipping, labor and parts.
I must admit that I did get a feeling from time to time that Leland1 may be the type of person that likes to take things apart just to see how they work and then may lose interest in it. If that is the case then at least he can re-coop his $50.00 and much more if the bike is in decent shape by parting it out and selling as much as he can.
What concerns me the most is the sick feeling he may get if he spends time and money on it and then for whatever reason cannot get a title for the bike or may not realize just how much money the bike may eat.
BTW, I would like to see the pictures of this bike, for more than one reason, that he said he would post. _________________ _________________________________
GONE.......WITH A PUFF OF SMOKE AND A BLUR OF SPOKE........
_______________________________________
Joined: Dec 06, 2010 Posts: 40 Location: Richland/Central Mississippi
Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:41 pm Post subject:
dorT500 wrote:
I had previously given him many links including Dans Motorcycle repair in his first post. He appreciated it and said he was finding out a lot things he had been looking for. Let's hope he keeps it up. I also included the VJMOG link to all posts related to the T500 by entering keyword T500 into the search option of the VJMOG. I posted some edited pics showing some very brief 'How To's after he said he was finding a lot of stuff on Dans Motorcycle repair. The edited pics I posted could be used now or later..either way...they are there for when they come in handy for that specific bike. If he does not read every single post, cruise the internet for even more info and still works on the bike than that is on him. He only paid $50.00 for the "abandoned' bike. I think he is just looking for some inexpensive stuff to do while he waits for funds (Me suspects an income tax return) for a bonded title, service manual, tools and parts he may need.( This is one reason why I suggested to him to clean every single electrical contact on that bike as a low cost pre-project while he waits for funds and that it would also give him a head-start for when and if he gets a bonded title. I told him it is either that type of work or just cover the bike with a blanket until he gets funds to do the project right. He has access to the internet and if he does his homework, takes his time, gets advice/answers from time to time from this forum and others, I can't see that there would be a problem working on this very simple two stoke engine. Many warnings of the oil pump/oil line procedures are in these forums. Good grief...no valves, no cams, no chains.
I don't think he actually wants to take the entire engine apart anyway. "Rebuild" may be just another term he inadvertently used while asking about seals/gaskets and cleaning. He probably found that he could get a full gasket set for about $30.00 and at least wants to replace just shaft seals, clutch cover gasket and the like. I don't think he meant cylinder base and cylinder head gaskets just yet.
That motorcycle is just sitting there and he wants to do something to it at minimal cost to 'pass the time' and I don't think anybody here is going to talk him out of jumping ahead to something he may or may not be able to handle at this time but he should be warned again even if he has read up on it already about all the crankshaft seals and 'O' rings most likely being bad. He may need to be reminded that the crankshaft would have to be split to replace the center crankseals and the center bearing 'O' rings. Also, the outboard crank bearing seals and 'O' rings should be replaced. Depending on which crankbuilder is used, could run up to a few hundred dollars for shipping, labor and parts.
I must admit that I did get a feeling from time to time that Leland1 may be the type of person that likes to take things apart just to see how they work and then may lose interest in it. If that is the case then at least he can re-coop his $50.00 and much more if the bike is in decent shape by parting it out and selling as much as he can.
What concerns me the most is the sick feeling he may get if he spends time and money on it and then for whatever reason cannot get a title for the bike or may not realize just how much money the bike may eat.
BTW, I would like to see the pictures of this bike, for more than one reason, that he said he would post.
Mkay... where to start.....
Here are the pics I posted on another forum I frequent.
http://www.hipointtalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=9534
I was concerned about the gaskets because the "oily crud" basically started at the bottom of that piece that attaches to the crank case (cylinders?) As for when ill get the title, both tax returns and student loans. I'm doing all the research I possibly can ( in fact right beside me sits 400+ pages of info including various articles, every parts breakdown on bike bandit, and the pics dorT500 posted and edited. I'm simply doing math and getting the info I need for any situation I feel I may come across with this bike. As I've stated before I am by no means a gear head. For me to understand something I need very clearly detailed direction and maybe a YouTube video or two. I've got about $75.00 in this bike including the bike, wd40, and muratic acid from derusting the tank. I don't plan on spending another dime until I get the title. I'm planning on this being my daily driver so I am wanting to get it running to the best of my ability and finances. I'm not the type of person that can afford mechanic fees unless ABSOLUTELY needed and saved up for. When I get the title it will signify the start of the project, and I've never left a project incomplete. This is simply a little more complex than painting, restarting lawn mowers or building model cars. So long as I get the title the bike will run, weather it be in a few months or years, then it will be painted candy purple and later down the line, rechromed. You guys are a long way from seeing the last of me cause I'm still motorcycle stupid and you guys have the info I need. I plan on entering this bike in auto shows in a few years. So I'm just going to take my shoes off, use your shower, eat all your Pringles and make myself at home here. This is going to take a while.
Joined: Nov 02, 2008 Posts: 1085 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:50 pm Post subject:
Good for you. Japanese motorcycles have been a 42 year journey for me so far. It's a delight to see others joining the team(?).I'm a rider first and a chronic tinkerer so many of the mistakes newcomers make I've made in the past, and some I've made more than once. This forum is an absolute wealth of knowledge that has given me a great deal.I'm confident you will get the same from it and more.
Joined: Jul 10, 2008 Posts: 1639 Location: Galveston County, Tx.
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:35 pm Post subject:
Leland1 wrote:
...... take my shoes off, use your shower, eat all your Pringles......
I can't speak for other peoples Pringles but..I'll give you my Pringles when you take them "from my cold dead hands"
But I think you might want some good used spare parts that I have instead....parts that I see are missing or damaged on that bike. When you 'get all your ducks in a row' , bike in your name and moving right along, you may have them for actual shipping cost if you want them.
BTW, The body set indicates that is a 1975 T500...not a '74. If the frame head is stamped 7/74 to 12/74, that makes it a '75. Same as my T500. Well.....not quite the same. Good Luck _________________ _________________________________
GONE.......WITH A PUFF OF SMOKE AND A BLUR OF SPOKE........
_______________________________________
Joined: Dec 06, 2010 Posts: 40 Location: Richland/Central Mississippi
Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:46 pm Post subject:
dorT500 wrote:
Leland1 wrote:
...... take my shoes off, use your shower, eat all your Pringles......
I can't speak for other peoples Pringles but..I'll give you my Pringles when you take them "from my cold dead hands"
But I think you might want some good used spare parts that I have instead....parts that I see are missing or damaged on that bike. When you 'get all your ducks in a row' , bike in your name and moving right along, you may have them for actual shipping cost if you want them.
BTW, The body set indicates that is a 1975 T500...not a '74. If the frame head is stamped 7/74 to 12/74, that makes it a '75. Same as my T500. Well.....not quite the same. Good Luck
That sounds like a plan dorT500! My wife hasn't received her W2 yet so Ill let you know when I get it titled (shouldn't be long). From where your sitting what else am I missing? I know I need a side cover and replacement petcock (completely deteriorated on the inside) Can any other petcock made for Suzuki fit? Also, I need new fork boots. I've seen them on eBay for 75.00+. Is that about right or is there somewhere else I can look? Bike bandit lists them as discontinued.
Stem reads 9/74 so its a 75. I feel like I traded it for a newer model! LOL! But hey! It still fits in the really old bike category!
And keep your eyes open my friend..... I really like Pringles.....
Joined: Jul 10, 2008 Posts: 1639 Location: Galveston County, Tx.
Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:57 pm Post subject:
The boots are available. You must have been looking at the wrong Ref.# on the parts fiche. It is #15. You scared me for a second because I need some new ones also and priced some a couple of months ago at a local Suzuki Dealership and they were available then. There will be tax but no shipping costs. Of course these would be the last thing you should be worried about and the longer you wait to get them the newer they will be later when you finish the bike. Also, by the time you need them there may be some aftermarket ones being made out of better material. Always go to a local dealership first to price/special order parts and see what you can do about getting a better price than MSRP they might quote you at first. Take a picture of that bike to the parts counter. I think they will know you will be back for more parts and work out a deal with you on parts prices but still compare to other sources. Other than going to the dealer... here is a place with good prices and shipping costs. You can price a part and then go all the way to 'Cart' to get total price for shipping before committing to buy. $22.70 each on the boots plus shipping. (in case this link does not show the correct page) http://www.ronayers.com/Search/N/687
On the fuel petcock. I would have to look at the pics again but at a glance it looked like you may not have the OEM automatic fuel petcock on there. I have a couple of spares. The original one that finally started leaking and a spare someone gave me that was a mess inside. I cleaned it well but it still leaked when I tested it. Had to buy a brand new OEM one a couple of years.
Member 'RacerRuss' shows some info and another option other than buying an OEM. The prices on the the brand new OEM petcocks is really up there now. http://vjmog.com/ftopict-6384.html (mainly on second page)
I need to make a run to the auto supply...I'll be back about the parts on your bike but in the mean time look at member RacerRuss's front fender assembly as opposed to what you have. _________________ _________________________________
GONE.......WITH A PUFF OF SMOKE AND A BLUR OF SPOKE........
_______________________________________
Joined: Jul 10, 2008 Posts: 1639 Location: Galveston County, Tx.
Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:26 pm Post subject:
I don't see that video. Anyway, the fuel petcock in the original pics looks right but as far as repair kits for them I don't think they come with much and even the vendors say they don't work about 40% of the time.I'd say enter the part number into bike bandits search and see what other bikes it fits and take a chance at a local salvage yard that you find one that won't leak when you get it home and test it or get a manual one like RacerRuss got. I think they may have it at Z1 Enterprises also...not sure. I stay with all OEM stuff if possible. While you are waiting for funds you might want to watch Craigslist Motorcycles in your state and bordering states. If lucky you may even find a T500 in better shape and running with a title for $500 to $700.00. It would be great to have spare engine parts, spare electrical components, spare sealed beam headlight, stator, wiring harnesses,etc. that the bike you have now could 'donate' when needed. It is imperative that you have spare parts. You never know when and what you will need a part and searching/buying them individually on ebay and other places can kill you sometimes. You should really think about that and if you can afford the project altogether.
Never the less here is a list spare used parts that I can give you based on the conditions mentioned in an earlier reply.
Entire front fender assembly. Not a dent or ding in it but is rusty and needs to be re-chromed to be presentable. The cost alone to rechrome could run...?? On my original assembly I think I paid right at $300.00 to have all eight pcs. and all the screws triple-chromed. See how fast $$$ can leave your wallet?
I'll send you a pic tomorrow in a pm and you can see if you still want it and also see if you can find one that does not need rechroming on ebay for a reasonable price.
Clutch and front brake levers.
Rear turn signal no lens.(gave the lens away recently)
What is that where the battery box goes? Is this bike wired up for a stock battery? I have a stock battery box if you need one. no cross strap but you can make one.
Tail light plastichrome back up plate. (The chromed plastic part the lens screws to) Very good condition I don't have a spare tail light lens. This plate is sold separately and does not have the light reflector that goes behind the bulb. I am pretty sure I do not have a reflector but I will check later.
I don't have a spare battery sidecover. Lost my original and now have the only spare I did have sanded and ready to prime and paint.
That kickstarter on that bike is not correct but you might post a pic of it or pm me a pic. You may have something there....I can't really tell by the original pic. I only have one or two spares. I need to keep those. They are not a great design and can break at the pivot shaft with a lot of use even when greased from time to time.
I have other non-engine related parts that you may need as you move along.
Again, you should really give some thought about looking for a runner in better shape in addition to the bike you have now for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. It will be a lot cheaper in the long run and also as mentioned by others and me you should just get the engine running first after you get a tile before doing anything else. Good Luck _________________ _________________________________
GONE.......WITH A PUFF OF SMOKE AND A BLUR OF SPOKE........
_______________________________________
Last edited by dorT500 on Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:27 pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: Jul 10, 2008 Posts: 1639 Location: Galveston County, Tx.
Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:39 pm Post subject:
Dang Leland1....I think you need a home pc. Anybody got an old or refurbished one they might sell for next to nothing?
Edit. Just the tower even. I have a nice Dell monitor though it be a CRT monitor, for the cost of shipping. _________________ _________________________________
GONE.......WITH A PUFF OF SMOKE AND A BLUR OF SPOKE........
_______________________________________
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for a bonded title, service manual, tools and parts he may need.( This is one reason why I suggested to him to clean every single electrical contact on that bike as a low cost pre-project while he waits for funds and that it would also give him a head-start for when and if he gets a bonded title. I told him it is either that type of work or just cover the bike with a blanket until he gets funds to do the project right. He has access to the internet and if he does his homework, takes his time, gets advice/answers from time to time from this forum and others, I can't see that there would be a problem working on this very simple two stoke engine. Many warnings of the oil pump/oil line procedures are in these forums. Good grief...no valves, no cams, no chains.