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Joined: Jul 10, 2008 Posts: 1598 Location: Galveston County, Tx.
Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 10:21 pm Post subject:
TajMan wrote:
It's not stamped with the amount of oil to put in trans.
Regardless right now, if there is any oil put in the engine anywhere it ends up blowing it out the exhaust and fouling the plug..
Yeaahhh..................? I think I got the drift of it awhile back. I am just wondering if it is possible that the previous owner poured a lot oil down into the cylinder/crankchamber right before it sat for "over five years" before you got it. That crankchamber drain plug will come in handy if he did. Obviously the rightside crank seal could be shot also as I had first mentioned.
Also, If the previous owner had happened to have the original instructions/bulletins or just knowing from experience that he was suppose to fill the transmission all the way to the top (overflowing) for extended storage in certain conditions then of course the oil would need to be drained from the tranny and the correct amount put back. You had answered me that the oil capacity was not stamped on the case. I THINK I saw it had an oil level screw in those parts diagrams....if so....After draining oil, you would add the new oil until it just starts to run out the hole if it is like what I have seen before.
(note for others who don't already know.....oil level screw not accurate on T500 models) _________________ _________________________________
GONE.......WITH A PUFF OF SMOKE AND A BLUR OF SPOKE........
_______________________________________
Joined: Apr 29, 2010 Posts: 17 Location: Bountiful, UT
Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 8:30 am Post subject:
Pretty certain the previous owner did NOTHING to prep it to sit for over 5 years (who knows could have been 10).
I had looked for oil level screw before but seen nothing.
I'll take metal shield off the bottom of engine again, and search around engine again for drain plugs and oil level screws.
Hey BTW thanks for the help here guys, you're my only real resource right now
Joined: Oct 30, 2009 Posts: 536 Location: Parker, CO
Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 1:09 pm Post subject:
I have been following this thread with interest as I also have a 1967 Suzuki Bearcat, which I purchased about 2 weeks ago. I haven't sorted it out yet. (876 original miles) I'm waiting on a ignition key which should be in early this week. PO said it ran fine recently? I see no indication that it has ran in the last 11 yrs, when it was last registered. I've just now put mine on the lift and have been looking it over for items needed. I want to make sure it runs ok and will probably put away as a later project. Also for learning how to paint. Anyway back to the problem with TajMan's bearcat. They definitely have 2 fill plugs. I looked in the front plug hole and can see what looks like a main shaft drive gear. Mine had a blue greenish oil (CCI oil) on the gear. I don't think it is supposed to be lubed with CCI. The drawing link posted earlier is hard to read. but I noticed it had a screw and gasket named oil level screw. So I believe you would have to add oil until it reaches that level, mine doesn't have a capacity stamp on the case either, but I'm not sure yet which screw is for level. I have only seen 1 drain plug (for transmission) so far. Maybe you have to remove the skid plate to see the crankcase drain. As for transmission oil reaching the crankcase it would have to be through the center case gasket (unlikely) or the righthand oil seal. (likely from overfilling crankcase) The left side seal as shown in an earlier attached pic is dry because it's the generator side. I'm hoping I don't have this problem but will let you know if I discover something pertinent to your problem TajMan.
EDIT:
I'll try to add some photo's
It may be you will need to due a crankcase press/vac test to verify how oil's reaching the crank case. When I change the gearbox oil on mine, I'm going to try to put it into the rear fill plug as that goes directly to the trans. If you put it into the front plug it has to go thru a small opening in the case to reach the gearbox. If it airlocks and doesn't empty that chamber, or if the passage is clogged, it may be sucked into the crankcase. You should barely be able to see the oil level thru the front plug as it just touches the bottom of the main drive gear.
IMG_1394-1.JPG
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Showing front fill plug opens area behind the oil pump
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IMG_1389-1.JPG
Description:
Showing the oil level screw and rear oil fill plug
Joined: Apr 29, 2010 Posts: 17 Location: Bountiful, UT
Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 6:52 pm Post subject:
Oh my, can't believe it.
I got the thing running and drove around the block a few times!! Running alright NOT blowing oil out the exhaust, and with oil in the trans.!!
I filled oil in the rear fill hole with the oil level screw out. I filled a good amount and thought it should be dripping out the level hole by now, but nothing yet. I filled a bit more, still nothing, and at that I re-installed screw and closed everything up.
.. and with that I was driving around, WASN'T blowing oil out exhaust and dripping down the engine, great. Exhaust cleaned up soon and wasn't all that 2-stroke smokey. (right now I had gas in the tank with some 2-stroke pre-mixed to be safer at first)
2 other issues.
-When i got home I saw my carb was dripping gas again from the overflow tube. I had to pull fuel hose and drain my tank with current rigged setup. I'm not sure, maybe my float valve hangs up and doesn't close sometimes but does others. I need to diagnose and fix this in carburetor.
-sometimes when I touch the key while running, I get shocked from a short from the ignition coil obviously. Also sometimes not others, you turn the key off but the engine keeps running! No kill switch, I was forced to use the brim of my hat to pull the plug wire off the spark-plug to stop the motor!
Bike is pretty cool, 2-stroke powerband with no expansion chamber very narrow, but if you shift quick the bike can keep picking up pretty quick. (I'm currently on the large sprocket low-geared).
I knew that suspension was gonna feel ancient. Pretty much like springs with no dampening.
Whats on the left hand control? Hi-low beams and is that supposed to be a horn button? My horn no work if that is..
Joined: Jul 10, 2008 Posts: 1598 Location: Galveston County, Tx.
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 6:46 am Post subject:
TajMan wrote:
I got the thing running ... I had gas in the tank with some 2-stroke pre-mixed to be safer at first)When i got home I saw my carb was dripping gas again from the overflow tube.
-sometimes when I touch the key while running, I get shocked from a short from the ignition coil..
Good News and new news for us, that is, about pre-mix being in the tank along with the the oil pump doing it's thing,an overflowing carburetor and an electrical problem. Now hopefully it was just unburnt gas/oil mixture coming out of the exhaust rather than just tranny oil that was put in the front fill and may have been being sucked in. It could start happening again but it sounds like you can sort the carb problem and electrical. There also seems to be a lot of service manuals on the internet under the KT120 version. Seems like the same motor except something about the '68 version had L0/HIGH change up by turning a knob on top of the rightside case or something..I am not sure....just a momentary glance at it but it might be something to look into as far as if the manual would workout for the B105P. Good Luck _________________ _________________________________
GONE.......WITH A PUFF OF SMOKE AND A BLUR OF SPOKE........
_______________________________________
Joined: Jul 10, 2008 Posts: 1598 Location: Galveston County, Tx.
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 7:59 am Post subject:
Rizingson wrote:
They definitely have 2 fill plugs. I looked in the front plug hole and can see what looks like a main shaft drive gear. Mine had a blue greenish oil (CCI oil) on the gear. I don't think it is supposed to be lubed with CCI.
I must admit I am even now more confused now about the set up and the problems with TajMan's bike. The Alpha website with the diagrams is either to busy or having problems so I can't look at anything right now. _________________ _________________________________
GONE.......WITH A PUFF OF SMOKE AND A BLUR OF SPOKE........
_______________________________________
Joined: Apr 29, 2010 Posts: 17 Location: Bountiful, UT
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 8:19 am Post subject:
dorT500 wrote:
Now hopefully it was just unburnt gas/oil mixture coming out of the exhaust rather than just tranny oil that was put in the front fill and may have been being sucked in.
no no no you don't understand.
It was pumping oil out the exhaust and dripping down the side of the engine below the center exhaust connection. NEW thick oil, Mobil Delvac I had just put in. Nothing to do with pre-mix'd gas in the tank and nothing to do with the 2-stroke oil storage/pump.
If it had something to do with putting oil in the FRONT fill hole the first time, and taking awhile to clear out, well then thats that..
How sure are you that Phillips screw is the "oil level screw" for trans oil? Just not sure with the amount I put in and nothing ever dripping out...I can add a little more..
So I've got the electrical issue, and the leaky carb issue, at least those..
Everythings not sorted yet, I tried to start a 2nd time last night to drive it some more, and I couldn't get it to fire once for a couple minutes, finally gave up.
Joined: Oct 30, 2009 Posts: 536 Location: Parker, CO
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 8:48 am Post subject:
About the oil level screw. Suzuki uses this method of level checking on other models as well. Of course you would need to pour in a little at a time and wait for it to slowly begin to run out the screw hole, with bike level on center stand. That was the only screw that had nothing to do with fastening the cover and had a gasket specified. I removed that screw from my bike and it just had a bit of oil running down from it. (blue/green) I don't know what brand or weight it was, but now know it was the same oil I saw on the gear from looking into the front fill hole. Disregard what I said about that appearing to be CCI oil. It just halppened to be the same color. You should keep track of how much oil it takes to reach that level so next change you can simply pour in the right quantity. A couple of things on not being able to restart your bike later. If a 2-stroke bike has completely cooled down and you have a leaking seal on either the dry seal or the wet seal it is just about impossible to start it without ether. Also you said you may still have some carb work to do. It is equally critical in starting a cold 2-stroke that the starter plunger or lever on the handle bar. (Suzuki's term others are different) is working properly. Many people refer to them as chokes. It's not because it has nothing to due with restricting air. It simply allows fuel to flow from the float chamber into the intake with minimal or even no vacuum. Almost identical to a tickler.
I'm getting anxious to start work on my B105p so maybe I can be more specific.
Joined: Jul 10, 2008 Posts: 1598 Location: Galveston County, Tx.
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 8:48 am Post subject:
TajMan wrote:
We saw the engine had 2 oil fill holes.
With the drain plug out, we poured a little oil in the front crankcase and soon it started draining out the drain hole.
*so we thought oh, those 2 fill plugs access the same part of the engine, the rear fill plug was covered by the bike's exhaust.*
Filled with the quantity of oil I had originally drained into that front fill plug, I began to kick over trying to start.
--The engine was soon blowing oil out the exhaust fast so that it was leaking out the middle exhaust gasket and leaking down the engine..
Of course plug fouled quick blowing all that oil so it never fired.
So the next time, after draining all oil out, then cleaned the spark plug and trying again, got it started!
It ran for maybe 1min 30sec then died, wouldn't start after that. Plug was fouled, but haven't been able to get it started any time after that.
After that I re-filled quantity of oil into the REAR fill plug on the crankcase. Trying to start, for a little while with no luck... THEN it started blowing oil out the crankcase again and fouling up the plug fast.
I see..... By reading the above text...maybe wrongly...I had just assumed that you always got back the exact same quantity of oil....no matter where you put it in. _________________ _________________________________
GONE.......WITH A PUFF OF SMOKE AND A BLUR OF SPOKE........
_______________________________________
Joined: Apr 29, 2010 Posts: 17 Location: Bountiful, UT
Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 3:03 pm Post subject:
I'll play with that level screw some more and add some more oil.
A good type of oil to use in bikes and bike transmissions is Mobil Delvac 1300 super (diesel truck oil)
Interstate has a battery for $18, I'll get one of those. Cross references with their part # 6N4-2A-WL
I need to try and find new air filter solution also.
Carb off now, I'll see if I can find a more specific carb rebuild kit, and an in-line petcock valve to turn fuel on/off.. It is clean and the starter jet is cleaned out and choke working properly. Just a float valve issue I guess..
No model # on carb is a bother.
Someone tried to insulate the ignition switch mounting, I think they were trying to stop the shock. I need to investigate the ignition coil though, prob. shorting out up there..
Joined: Apr 29, 2010 Posts: 17 Location: Bountiful, UT
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 8:47 pm Post subject:
I just posted this on my personal car forum of some buddies:
"HOLY ***!
I've put 20 miles on the bearcat, most of that was offroad. Problem is I have the chain on the small sprocket for top end, so its a ** dog slow when almost crawling in first gear and I've been racing the thing mobbin it in places to keep going.
Some how I ended up on this bonneville shoreline trail not for motorized vehicles and I just kept going (in direction of home),
HOLY *** some of the things I pulled off- very steep spots, very rocky terrain, racing in 1st for the powerband.
non-dampned springs suspension.
CAN NOT believe I didn't break anything or wreck the thing
that was *** ludicrous, I am the man
TOTALLY different animal on the large rear sprocket. Would be awesome to climb everything I did with the short gearing for the narrow powerband. It really matches the engine perfect for the purpose. The small rear sprocket is just T A L L gearing in the little 4-speed bike.
Difference is top speed of 33ish possible (large sprocket), or maybe 54mph on this small rear sprocket..
Got a battery, fixed the ignition switch electrical issues.
Only main prob is sometimes the float valve works and sometimes it keeps leaking, randomly, but the engine runs pretty good like it was meant to!
I'm glad I bought it, and I'll be glad to sell it soon and get my other bike running hehe"
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I am just wondering if it is possible that the previous owner poured a lot oil down into the cylinder/crankchamber right before it sat for "over five years" before you got it. That crankchamber drain plug will come in handy if he did. Obviously the rightside crank seal could be shot also as I had first mentioned.
Good News and new news for us, that is, about pre-mix being in the tank along with the the oil pump doing it's thing,an overflowing carburetor and an electrical problem. Now hopefully it was just unburnt gas/oil mixture coming out of the exhaust rather than just tranny oil that was put in the front fill and may have been being sucked in. It could start happening again but it sounds like you can sort the carb problem and electrical. There also seems to be a lot of service manuals on the internet under the KT120 version. Seems like the same motor except something about the '68 version had L0/HIGH change up by turning a knob on top of the rightside case or something..I am not sure....just a momentary glance at it but it might be something to look into as far as if the manual would workout for the B105P. Good Luck
now about the set up and the problems with TajMan's bike. The Alpha website with the diagrams is either to busy or having problems so I can't look at anything right now.