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Joined: Jan 20, 2010 Posts: 59 Location: Georgetown, TX
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:18 pm Post subject:
Hey Geezer,
What kind of guages did you use to set the sync on your T500 carbs?
I did the mod on my carb tonight and hooked them up to my Morgan Carb Tune guages. compared to my GL1000 and CB450 there doesn't appear to be enough vacuum to give me an good indication at idle.
Additionally, I had a problem with the cable being too long. The adjusters on the carb tops needed to be screwed almost all the way up and the throttle assembly adjust ment is scewed almost 1/2 way out. This made it tough to adjust the initial idle. My guess is the throttle cables are stretched a little bit.
Unlike a 4 stroke the idle doesn't return promptly when the throttle is "blipp'd" like a 4 stroke and, from a dead idle, it's not crisp like the 4 stroke in throttle response. Once the revs are above 2K it's very responsive.
Is this SOP for 2 strokes? As you can tell, other than a bunch of old MX bikes I used to race about 30 years ago, this is my first real 2 stroke street bike.
Joined: Dec 26, 2007 Posts: 1217 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:29 am Post subject:
MNellis wrote:
Hey Geezer,
What kind of guages did you use to set the sync on your T500 carbs?
I did the mod on my carb tonight and hooked them up to my Morgan Carb Tune guages. compared to my GL1000 and CB450 there doesn't appear to be enough vacuum to give me an good indication at idle.
Additionally, I had a problem with the cable being too long. The adjusters on the carb tops needed to be screwed almost all the way up and the throttle assembly adjust ment is scewed almost 1/2 way out. This made it tough to adjust the initial idle. My guess is the throttle cables are stretched a little bit.
Unlike a 4 stroke the idle doesn't return promptly when the throttle is "blipp'd" like a 4 stroke and, from a dead idle, it's not crisp like the 4 stroke in throttle response. Once the revs are above 2K it's very responsive.
Is this SOP for 2 strokes? As you can tell, other than a bunch of old MX bikes I used to race about 30 years ago, this is my first real 2 stroke street bike.
McNellis,
You're right - there isn't enough vacuum on a two stroke to use a Morgan. I have a SynchMate that I use on 4 strokes that's also useless on 2 strokers. You'll need a set of mercury Carb Stix. You're also correct that the adjusters will need to be way out on the carb tops to get the correct slack. If there isn't enough take up at the handlebar to idle the engine at 1500 rpm, operate the throttle by hand as you view the carb synch tool. Actually, I synch my carbs at 3000 rpm with the carb top adjusters, then synch the idle with the speed screws. This makes for really smooth running at speed.
Slow return to idle can be caused by several things - uneven adjustment of air screws, clogged pilot circuits, or uneven wet fuel levels (as opposed to float levels). If you can fabricate a tool to inspect the actual level of fuel in the float bowls, then you can adjust them so they're equal. Otherwise, slight differences in float weight or needle/seat dimensions and spring strength can cause the float level setting method to result in quite different fuel levels. The threads in the float bowl drains are 6mm x 0.75mm
Joined: Jul 10, 2008 Posts: 1598 Location: Galveston County, Tx.
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:42 am Post subject:
Can't it just be used the way suggested here?
Morgan Carbtune
Operation
FAQs
.........
The manometer must be used vertically for a scale starting at 8cmHg (centimetres of mercury. 1 inch=2.5cm 1cm=0.4inches) and going to 42cmHg. Most bikes have readings higher than 8cmHg, but some bikes such as R-series BMWs and two strokes can have readings lower than this.
To get a reading below 8cmHg remove the plastic cable clip from the slot at top of gauge and insert it into the slot at the bottom. Push cable clip into slot from front of gauge. Hang the Carbtune Pro upside-down.
Ignore the scale figures. Zero will now be around 16cmHg on the scale but the full width scale graduations will still be 2cmHg. Absolute values are not important. Comparisons are important.
Q. Does the Carbtune work with 2-strokes?
It will work on any engine as long as it has these two points:
1) Somewhere to connect it. The connection will either be a blanked off screw hole or a stub for pushing on a rubber hose. The Carbtune comes with both 5mm and 6mm adapters for screw in fittings and a 5mm id hose for the push on fitting. If you engine has these fittings it should fit. Most two-strokes do not have any connection points although Suzuki triples do.
2) The readings are between 0cmHg to 40cmHG. No problem with 2-strokes. _________________ _________________________________
GONE.......WITH A PUFF OF SMOKE AND A BLUR OF SPOKE........
_______________________________________
Joined: Jan 20, 2010 Posts: 59 Location: Georgetown, TX
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:54 pm Post subject:
dorT500 wrote:
The manometer must be used vertically for a scale starting at 8cmHg (centimetres of mercury. 1 inch=2.5cm 1cm=0.4inches) and going to 42cmHg. Most bikes have readings higher than 8cmHg, but some bikes such as R-series BMWs and two strokes can have readings lower than this.
To get a reading below 8cmHg remove the plastic cable clip from the slot at top of gauge and insert it into the slot at the bottom. Push cable clip into slot from front of gauge. Hang the Carbtune Pro upside-down.
Ignore the scale figures. Zero will now be around 16cmHg on the scale but the full width scale graduations will still be 2cmHg. Absolute values are not important. Comparisons are important.
That's excellent, thanks for that bit of research, I'll check my Morgan Guages tomorrow and then recheck the sync.
Joined: Jan 20, 2010 Posts: 59 Location: Georgetown, TX
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:20 pm Post subject:
Bikegeezer wrote:
McNellis,
You're right - there isn't enough vacuum on a two stroke to use a Morgan. I have a SynchMate that I use on 4 strokes that's also useless on 2 strokers. You'll need a set of mercury Carb Stix. You're also correct that the adjusters will need to be way out on the carb tops to get the correct slack. If there isn't enough take up at the handlebar to idle the engine at 1500 rpm, operate the throttle by hand as you view the carb synch tool. Actually, I synch my carbs at 3000 rpm with the carb top adjusters, then synch the idle with the speed screws. This makes for really smooth running at speed.
Slow return to idle can be caused by several things - uneven adjustment of air screws, clogged pilot circuits, or uneven wet fuel levels (as opposed to float levels). If you can fabricate a tool to inspect the actual level of fuel in the float bowls, then you can adjust them so they're equal. Otherwise, slight differences in float weight or needle/seat dimensions and spring strength can cause the float level setting method to result in quite different fuel levels. The threads in the float bowl drains are 6mm x 0.75mm
Stu
Stu, thanks for the float level tip and pictures. That was going to be one of my next questions, what should the float level setting be since it's not spelled out in the manual I have.
Joined: Dec 26, 2007 Posts: 1217 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:42 am Post subject:
MNellis wrote:
Stu, thanks for the float level tip and pictures. That was going to be one of my next questions, what should the float level setting be since it's not spelled out in the manual I have.
McNellis,
For a large zoom on either pic above, click the pic, then click the "+" under the new pic, then click on the larger pic. Bear in mind that my bike is a '76. Your carbs may be slightly different internally, but I believe this fuel level will work for you.
Kawasaki was the only Jap manufacturer that specified fuel level rather than float level. This is where they had it on similar Mikuni carbs, and I used a factory Kawasaki level setting tool here. This fuel level also jives with an old Sudco Mikuni tuning manual that specs fuel level for this model carb as measured from the center of the carburetor throat. I tried altering up to 2mm in small increments above and below this setting, but I found the best overall performance with the fuel level at the bottom of the float bowl flange - the surface that the bowl screws seat against. I tried altering the jet needle clip one groove either direction from center, but it runs best in the middle groove. I'm basically at sea level, and I found the stock main jet (97.5) just a tad lean near the top end. So I went one size up (#100), and it's really dialed in now.
Joined: Jan 20, 2010 Posts: 59 Location: Georgetown, TX
Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:01 pm Post subject:
Bikegeezer wrote:
Kawasaki was the only Jap manufacturer that specified fuel level rather than float level. This is where they had it on similar Mikuni carbs, and I used a factory Kawasaki level setting tool here. This fuel level also jives with an old Sudco Mikuni tuning manual that specs fuel level for this model carb as measured from the center of the carburetor throat. I tried altering up to 2mm in small increments above and below this setting, but I found the best overall performance with the fuel level at the bottom of the float bowl flange - the surface that the bowl screws seat against. I tried altering the jet needle clip one groove either direction from center, but it runs best in the middle groove. I'm basically at sea level, and I found the stock main jet (97.5) just a tad lean near the top end. So I went one size up (#100), and it's really dialed in now.
Stu
More great information Stu, thanks. I looked over the manual pretty well last night but never saw any information on setting float height by fuel level or float level.
I got my 33t sprocket in today so maybe I can take the bike on the highway without buzzing the hell out of it.
I also checked out my Morgan Guages and by turning them upside down, I can see how that would work but I didn't get a chance to play with it much. Even with the fiddling around I did the other night trying to sync the carbs, the bike is running better. It starts better cold and idles nice but it's still slow to come back down to idle. I'll check the float levels in the next few days as well.
Before all that I've got a oil delivery problem to address but I'll post that up in a seperate thread.
Joined: Jul 10, 2008 Posts: 1598 Location: Galveston County, Tx.
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:00 am Post subject:
Dang...I'lreduce the size later...gotta go.
Edit...I know, new scan...above too small to read....got a dozen things going on right now. I hate huge pics. _________________ _________________________________
GONE.......WITH A PUFF OF SMOKE AND A BLUR OF SPOKE........
_______________________________________
Last edited by dorT500 on Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:29 pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: Dec 26, 2007 Posts: 1217 Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:03 am Post subject:
Yes Dor, that float level info is in the TSBs, Clymer manuals, and other places. But there's no mention of actual wet fuel level for Suzuki bikes anywhere I've ever seen. Most believe setting the floats to specs is enough, and wet fuel levels are needless attention to detail. But adjusting the levels equal in all carbs can solve some elusive problems.
Joined: Jan 20, 2010 Posts: 59 Location: Georgetown, TX
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:57 am Post subject:
Thanks Dor, that's very helpful as well.
In the Honda world the Clymers manuals don't have a great reputation. However, if the information you guys are posting come from Clymers then it's certainly a whole lot better than the Factory Service Manual that I have. I've downloaded some of the TSB that I found on the Ozebook site.
I may have to grab a Clymers manaul just as another source of reference for some of the details that I'm obviously missing.
Joined: Jul 10, 2008 Posts: 1598 Location: Galveston County, Tx.
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:42 pm Post subject:
Bikegeezer wrote:
Yes Dor, that float level info is in the TSBs, Clymer manuals, and other places. But there's no mention of actual wet fuel level for Suzuki bikes anywhere I've ever seen.
Stu
I know there is no mention of wet fuel levels......hell, I waited two days until MNellis specifically asked for float level again before posting this scan. Same float level in T500 tune up section on ozebrook. _________________ _________________________________
GONE.......WITH A PUFF OF SMOKE AND A BLUR OF SPOKE........
_______________________________________
Joined: Jul 10, 2008 Posts: 1598 Location: Galveston County, Tx.
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:47 pm Post subject:
Remember 'bucky' ...the member who started this thread? He must be way too shy ...I just checked my pm's from a couple of days ago. As Stu suggested and I have in the past but not this time...the sliders were mixed up. Everything is 'hunky dory' now. Just goes to show that what some privately published manuals do a good job of...that is....a bit more personal, basically, that is never 'assume anything', etc. and go for the simple solutions first. I have a bad habit of 'overthinking ' alot of things in life...sometimes it works out, sometimes it does not. 'bucky'...please post your results in the future.....this time it worked out well. This is one heck of a collection of some informative replies. Stu....as always, my respect and appreciation of you. Type at you later, Mark _________________ _________________________________
GONE.......WITH A PUFF OF SMOKE AND A BLUR OF SPOKE........
_______________________________________
Joined: Jan 20, 2010 Posts: 59 Location: Georgetown, TX
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:31 pm Post subject:
dorT500 wrote:
Bikegeezer wrote:
Yes Dor, that float level info is in the TSBs, Clymer manuals, and other places. But there's no mention of actual wet fuel level for Suzuki bikes anywhere I've ever seen.
Stu
I know there is no mention of wet fuel levels......hell, I waited two days until MNellis specifically asked for float level again before posting this scan. Same float level in T500 tune up section on ozebrook.
I'll have to go back and check Ozebook again. I was in there this morning looking at the SB but didn't see anything re: the tuneup specs.
This has been a fun thread and I'm sorry to have sort of taken it over. I hope the original poster talks about his results, that's the only way that new model owners like me are going to figure this stuff out. I've got more questions about other stuff but I'll wait until I'm working on that stuff and have a chance to work it out on my own before I start asking away.
I checked my Fuel Level tonight and it was right on for both carbs.
After that, I broke out the Morgan Carb Tune Guage and turned it upside down. It worked great! I had it pretty close but this allowed me to get it that much closer.
Here is what the reading were when I started. No, those are not my hands, my wife came out to help out like she frequently does.
After fiddling around, here is what I ended up with. I had some problems getting the idle adjustment screws to work correctly. The springs would bind up and I just found it difficult to adjust them accurately. I removed the springs and it worked great. I'm unsure if these are the original springs . Currently, I left the springs off but I'll have to install some new springs once I find out what the correct springs look like. One other issue that doesn't seem right is the amount I had to unscrew the adjusters on the top of the carb. They are virtually screwed all the way out and that doesn't seem right. I'm thinking about either getting new cables or shortening the ones I have to get the adjuster back to the "mid point". The handlebar adjuster is about 3/4 of the way out as well.
Thanks again for all your help. _________________ Mike Nellis
CMRA #23 Expert
´04 Suzuki GSXR 1K
´68 Honda CL350
´70 Honda CB450
´75 Suzuki T500
´76 Honda GL1000
´00 Yamaha YZ426
´01 Yamaha Raptor 660
´85 Honda Big Red
Vans RV-6 Under Construction
Last edited by MNellis on Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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I hate huge pics.
Remember 'bucky' ...the member who started this thread? He must be way too shy 
...I just checked my pm's from a couple of days ago. As Stu suggested and I have in the past but not this time...the sliders were mixed up. 
